Return-Path: Received: from nskntmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com ([61.9.168.149] verified) by realpeople.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.16) with ESMTP id 1560652 for Helix-L@realpeople.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:03:11 -0500 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=realpeople.com; client-ip=61.9.168.149; envelope-from=lucidlee@pobox.com Received: from nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com ([58.173.48.215]) by nskntmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20100825160135.TJDP18865.nskntmtas05p.mx.bigpond.com@nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:01:35 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.9] (really [58.173.48.215]) by nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20100825160134.ZITJ4790.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@[192.168.1.9]> for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:01:34 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6--497743007 Message-Id: <0214CCA1-3660-4CD2-B32A-807BA7DE4DAF@pobox.com> From: Lee Rydstrand Subject: Re: [Hx] Typical Fees Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 02:02:14 +1000 To: Helix Discussion List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-RPD-ScanID: Class unknown; VirusThreatLevel unknown, RefID str=0001.0A090208.4C753E5F.0096,ss=1,fgs=0 --Apple-Mail-6--497743007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I find this timely, seeing as how I'm just preparing a bill for converting a Helix db into MYOB ( the dominant accounting package in Australia - let's leave discussion of its choice alone for now) The data transfer process for this project has been/continues to be a complete PITA, hampered by the original Helix author's very ordinary understanding of relational database theory that allowed him to create a complete accounting package in just two relations without the encumbrance of Posting, Sequences or any new-fangled doohickeys like popups, subforms or double-clickable lists etc. On the retro-Mac side, Chicago really is a fantastic font when used for both labels and data rectangles at any size, but at its best when bolded and underlined at 9pts. Those 4" square data entry forms in simple black and white look great on a 27" full colour display. And of course while MYOB appears to be based on a RDBMS parts of its data structure leave much to be desired, eg Mr Andrew Smith-Dickinson will now be remembered by MYOB as Mr Andrew Smith-Dick But I digress. Fortunately neither Matt nor Gil read this list so I can state openly that professional developers (not DIY business owner/developers) must regard Helix as an end of life product. In the rest of the developer world this normally means that programmers are exiting as fast as possible in search of tools that other people want them to use. They must retrain themselves and this costs time and money. The money comes from current work. So the money must not only support normal lifestyle requirements but also retraining and tooling costs. For us older developers the actual time spent working on Helix projects represents a more important opportunity cost because it prevents us taking the time to develop skills and experience in more fashionable tools. And we have much less time left in our useful working lives to waste. In short, the hourly rates for developers using tools going out of fashion must be higher than for a developer using tools in fashion because that developer is competing against the general population of such developers with similar skill sets. You are competing both against a smaller set of Helix developers (maybe ten of us all told) and the possibility the client may opt for a complete rewrite in a newer tool. Both instances allow you to charge a higher rate. To put it bluntly: if your Helix skills are needed by a client with a dominant commitment to Helix then now is the time to milk the client. Don't undervalue yourself aren't that many Helix clients or developers left. Lee PS: Its not all over for Helix yet. When Helix RADE goes OSX native your fortunes as an in-demand Helix developer may rise again - and then you can charge a premium as an 'expert' while the newbies learn it from scratch. On 26/08/2010, at 1:03 AM, Gregg Sanderson wrote: > But if you must quote by the hour, and the client isn't a Helix > developer, always estimate time in what it would take to do it in a > lesser environment like Filemaker or 4D or such. You'll always > undercut quotes from them and still make out OK. :-) > --Apple-Mail-6--497743007 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII I find this timely, seeing as how I'm just preparing a bill for = converting a Helix db into MYOB ( the dominant accounting package in = Australia - let's leave discussion of its choice alone for = now)

The data transfer process for this project has = been/continues to be a complete PITA, hampered by the original Helix = author's very ordinary understanding of relational database theory that = allowed him to create a complete accounting package in just two = relations without the encumbrance of Posting, Sequences or any = new-fangled doohickeys like popups, subforms or double-clickable lists = etc. 

On the retro-Mac side, Chicago = really is a fantastic font when used for both labels and data rectangles = at any size, but at its best when bolded and underlined at 9pts. Those = 4" square data entry forms in simple black and white look great on a 27" = full colour display.

And of course while MYOB = appears to be based on a RDBMS parts of its data structure leave much to = be desired, eg Mr Andrew Smith-Dickinson will now be remembered by MYOB = as Mr Andrew Smith-Dick

But I = digress.

Fortunately neither Matt nor Gil read = this list so I can state openly that professional developers (not DIY = business owner/developers) must regard Helix as an end of life product. = In the rest of the developer world this normally means that programmers = are exiting as fast as possible in search of tools that other people = want them to use. They must retrain themselves and this costs time and = money. The money comes from current work. So the money must not only = support normal lifestyle requirements but also retraining and tooling = costs. For us older developers the actual time spent working on Helix = projects represents a more important opportunity cost because it = prevents us taking the time to develop skills and experience in more = fashionable tools. And we have much less time left in our useful working = lives to waste.

In short, the hourly rates for = developers using tools going out of fashion must be higher than for a = developer using tools in fashion because that developer is competing = against the general population of such developers with similar skill = sets. You are competing both against a smaller set of Helix developers = (maybe ten of us all told) and the possibility the client may opt for a = complete rewrite in a newer tool. Both instances allow you to charge a = higher rate.

To put it bluntly: if your Helix = skills are needed by a client with a dominant commitment to Helix then = now is the time to milk the client. Don't undervalue yourself aren't = that many Helix clients or developers = left.

Lee
PS: Its not all over for = Helix yet. When Helix RADE goes OSX native your fortunes as an in-demand = Helix developer may rise again - and then you can charge a premium as an = 'expert' while the newbies learn it from = scratch.

On 26/08/2010, at 1:03 AM, Gregg = Sanderson wrote:

But if = you must quote by the hour, and the client isn't a Helix developer, = always estimate time in what it would take to do it in a lesser = environment like Filemaker or 4D or such.  You'll always undercut = quotes from them and still make out OK. :-)

=

= --Apple-Mail-6--497743007--