Return-Path: Received: from asmtpout023.mac.com ([17.148.16.98] verified) by realpeople.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.16) with ESMTP id 1560744 for Helix-L@realpeople.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:50:06 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=realpeople.com; client-ip=17.148.16.98; envelope-from=sfinder@me.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_5HL4Ir8ra+NIIywWa7Kx4g)" Received: from [10.0.10.139] ([63.254.164.178]) by asmtp023.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0L7P00BBMYU2AZ60@asmtp023.mac.com> for Helix-L@realpeople.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=6.0.2-1004200000 definitions=main-1008250130 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.0.10011,1.0.148,0.0.0000 definitions=2010-08-25_09:2010-08-25,2010-08-25,1970-01-01 signatures=0 From: Steven Finder Subject: Re: [Hx] Typical Fees Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:49:19 -0500 In-reply-to: To: Helix Discussion List References: Message-id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) --Boundary_(ID_5HL4Ir8ra+NIIywWa7Kx4g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Let me wade in here from the perspective of a customer. This is not just a response to Lenny but to everyone's comments. I just happened to pick this particular email to respond to. All this talk about how much to charge and whether it is client centric or win win is just irrelevant. From the customers perspective. As a customer, I hate hourly wages. I hate the way lawyers bill. I hate the idea that every little process and question has a price tag. I hate not knowing how much something is going to cost. I hate to see the meter clicking. Question: How many of you enjoy watching the meter in a taxi getting bigger? How many of you would prefer to just pay a set price for a taxi ride? What I want as a customer is to say to me, this is what it is going to cost. Then when I get over my sticker shock and we agree, then go out and do it for the price we agreed. If we negotiate a lower price then that is the price we agree to. If it isn't a fair price, then don't agree to a lower price and stick to your guns. If you don't get the business you don't get the business. Sell on value. Bid it like every construction company bids a project. Be smart about the bid. If you have a clear understanding of the project and a clear understanding of the current status of the collection (if any) and can't estimate a good price then you aren't really an expert. (note, this is my view as a customer). By the way, the price you estimate is the price at which you believe you will earn a fair profit given the invariable issues that are sure to arise. And when issues that arise are beyond the scope of agreement, then you negotiate a change order or addendum. I like the idea of breaking it into chunks with go/no go along the way. I can even see an initial project where you say, I will charge $XX to evaluate your current collection and the scope of practice prior to giving you a bid on the total amount of work to be completed and the cost. If the collection is simple and the requirements are simple, you can do this for free. If they are complex, charge for it. You could even include the cost to evaluate as a discount toward the final project. (Not really of course, because it is eventually all built in but clients like that) and it helps seal a deal. Clients hate to lose sunk costs, even though sunk costs are irrelevant. As a customer, I don't like the idea that I am paying for someone to figure something which is what happes with an hourly wage (even if it doesn't, I am going to think it does). For example, if I am contracting with someone and they have to go look up something or ask someone else for help I don't want to be paying for that. I want that to be on their time. By the way, I know of no medical care that charges by the hour. In other words, as a physician if I have to go do some reading about a disease process or a new treatment for a patient, I don't get to charge that to someone. But when you are doing hourly work for me, as a customer, that is what I worry about happening. So stick with project bidding. Break it into chunks (phases) if it helps to make the bidding more realistic. Make sure that the bid price you quote pays you a fair profit. You are entitled to it. Keep your inherent hourly rate to yourself. Renegotiate change orders as the project morphs. Finally, it doesn't matter how you approach a contract, hourly or project bid. If someone doesn't pay, you have a problem regardless. This is to address Wade's issue about someone with legal problems after a project bid. Just my thoughts as a customer. Steven Finder On Aug 25, 2010, at 11:06 AM, Lenny Eiger wrote: > Gregg, > I love ya man, but I think you've got this one a little incorrect - or maybe we just disagree on the structure of client-supplier relations. > > When I started out as a young buck, I had spent much time in the art world, and in emotional-spiritual endeavors. I didn't know how to engage in business and didn't want to be one more cutthroat. I took one of those business/transformational workshops called Money and You, primarily because I wanted to keep my girlfriend at the time who was really into it. Regardless of this foolishness, I learned about the concept of integrity - I am still deeply attached to it - and it made the idea of engaging in business conceptually possible for me. The problem was that I was so focused on making sure the client won, and not playing win-lose on them, that I ended up playing lose-win. The client was happy, but I got the short end of the stick every time, and I was poor. > > After plenty of work on this I realized that integrity has to go both ways. One has to be in integrity with one's self - as well as any service that one offers. > > Both you and Gene have expressed ideas about this that are quite "client-centric". Overly so, in my opinion. There appears to be only discussion of helping the client lower their costs, undercutting and no consideration of a balanced approach. > > I see the balanced approach beginning with what a Helix developer has to offer. Are you an amateur helping out a friend? Are you pretty good at this, or are you a seasoned professional. If its the latter, which I presume we are talking about, then you have to consider what a good annual salary would look like and what does it take to accomplish that - possible even with a family, a home and a working car. What would that take, given that most of us have to not only market and sell, but do the work, pay bills, lick stamps and take out the trash. One also has to figure maybe we should have a little savings for taxes, property taxes, and maybe some for the kid's college fund. There is also the place you live to take into consideration. And, of course, at the end, there is what the market will bear, and whether the endeavor is actually viable or not. > > For many years I have had no 401K or equivalent and paid the property taxes on my house with money out of the second. What's wrong with me? > > I think the final equation looks more like what level of service am I offering for what appropriate compensation. At the moment my rates are $125 an hour. The only reason they are so low is because my clients don't want to pay more. I know others who charge $150. > > We've done well this year because both Dale and I have gotten better at charging for our time - all of it. The client-centric position would have us deduct money from the bill when we program a little slow - maybe its a difficult problem, or just difficult for us to see on that day. The problem is that when we are speeding through a feature at light speed, we don't get to charge double, or triple. We charge one rate to everyone, and it all comes out in the wash. > > I bill both on a project basis and an hourly one, depending on the type of project. If it is ongoing work, then its hourly. If its a project with a scheduled installation, then its by project. If I am asked to make a guess, I will protect myself thoroughly and make a guess on the very high side - and let the client know that if he wants me to gamble he needs to gamble as well. Forcing me to guess will cost him. > > Once, a client once haggled with me and I told him, "You don't want to try and pay me less, you want to pay me more than I am asking you. You have a complicated collection and want to have me in business doing Helix - to protect yourself and your investment." I tell others that this is a two-way street, I am only interested in playing win-win, that I will do my best to do what is right for them and the reverse should also be true. > > It's one thing when you are doing someone a favor. There are times when we do things for less for someone who can't afford it. I can afford to do so only when I charge others a fair rate. Most of my clients don't need a break, they need excellent work at a fair price. I consider myself a pro, and if they want professional work, they should be prepared to pay for professional rates. There's always someone cheaper, some student or beginner, but its not appropriate for a company that will rely on the work that is done. > > I hope this is helpful. > > Lenny > > > > > On Aug 25, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Gregg Sanderson wrote: > >> Excellent advice from Gene..... >> >> I forgot to mention in my epistle, to break the job into small pieces. Gene calls them "chunks". I like "Phases"... it sounds more dramatic. >> >> Beyond that, I agree with everything he says here except quoting an hourly rate. Once you quote an hourly rate, the client's watching the meter, and you have to also. I prefer quoting for the phase and that's the price no matter what it takes. >> >> But if you must quote by the hour, and the client isn't a Helix developer, always estimate time in what it would take to do it in a lesser environment like Filemaker or 4D or such. You'll always undercut quotes from them and still make out OK. :-) >> -- >> Gregg >> >> =============================================================== >> Write a wise saying and your name will live forever. >> -- Anonymous >> =============================================================== >> >> On Aug 25, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Evgeny Goosev wrote: >> >>> I'm I'll right now but if Wade can confess weakness here, I've got this part down near perfectly, and that makes everyone the happiest regardless of what happens. >>> >>> ALWAYS KEEP $$ Medium and do able (60/hr) AWAYS COMMIT TO PERFECT RESULTS, But ONLY for the next step. AGREE PERFECT PROGRESS, but only to THE NEXT SMALL DOABLE CHUNK. Agree each chunk PERFECTION ATTAINMENT determines commitment whether to continue to next chunk, or hire another. >>> >>> Now you can be PERFECT because you will Agree every clarification is on the clock ( and our list wisdom is your insurance.) >>> >>> All payment is advances or milestones. Then be absolutely honest about every detail as you work, social, personal, philosophical, technical, etc. COMMUNICATE! >>> >>> lastly, never own the job. It's always the client's attempt to win a gamble to get rich. Link every act to this. That defines BUSINESS ; ) >>> >>> Got some bug, but still Cheerfully, >>> Gene >>> >>> Then >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Aug 24, 2010, at 3:42 PM, Kegan Gg Daniel wrote: >>> >>>> A fair total cost can't be estimated without some assessment of the current Helix collection. >>>> When the collection was crafted (under which Helix version); >>>> Which Helix version it now runs under; >>>> Total size of structure; >>>> total size of data; >>>> number of relations; >>>> number of views; >>>> number of user icons; >>>> are some of the objective that that might be informative. >>>> >>>> Most important is whether the current collection design is good, fair, ora >>>> rat's nest--but that's often not a polite question to ask a prospective client, >>>> and even if you did, the reliability of the answer is quite uncertain. >>>> >>>> Asking who (all the whos) who build the collection might be an easier question; >>>> along with about how many hours (or $) was spent in building the collection. >>>> >>>> Has it run flawlessly since first installed; >>>> how frequent have been bugs and crashes; >>>> when were there major rewrites. >>>> >>>> How mission critical is the collection (which impacts how easily you can muck >>>> around): 24/7 oxygen, or can the system be down for 1 or 12 or 48 hours. >>>> >>>> Likely, a fair start is >>>> an hourly charge with a max for initial diagnosis and estimate. >>>> >>>> Daniel Kegan * daniel@keganlaw.com * Kegan & Kegan, Ltd. >>>> 79 W Monroe St #1320 Chicago IL 60603-4969 USA >>>> Phn 312=782-6495 x21; Fax 312=782-6494 >>>> We identify, develop, and protect intangible business assets >>>> and counsel other professionals on legal issues >>>> Balanced Counsel for Smart Clients >>>> >>>> On Aug 24, 2010, at 5:25 PM, Collins Owens wrote: >>>>> I have been contacted by a Helix user and asked to come to their site and "upgrade" their application, all their forms, to be presentable on OS X machines. >>>>> They are asking the first question always asked,... "how much will it cost me...." >>>>> So, Question: What is a standard or typical rate to charge for this type of work? They are insisting at first that I commute to their office - about 40 miles, but eventually they may let me work via timbuctu. >>>>> Is it more typical to charge by the hour? How much is normal? >>>>> or by the job? How much per form? >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Collins >>>> >>>> >>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, e-mail ; to switch to DIGEST mode, e-mail ; contact a human being at . Google archive since 20 August 2006: http://groups.google.com/group/helix-l. Basic archive since 1 Jan 2006: http://mail.realpeople.com:8100/Lists/Helix-L/List.html >>> >>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the mailing list . To unsubscribe, e-mail ; to switch to DIGEST mode, e-mail ; contact a human being at . Google archive since 20 August 2006: http://groups.google.com/group/helix-l. Basic archive since 1 Jan 2006: http://mail.realpeople.com:8100/Lists/Helix-L/List.html >> > --Boundary_(ID_5HL4Ir8ra+NIIywWa7Kx4g) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Gregg,
I love ya man, but I think you've got this one a little = incorrect - or maybe we just disagree on the structure of = client-supplier relations.

When I started out = as a young buck, I had spent much time in the art world, and in = emotional-spiritual endeavors. I didn't know how to engage in business = and didn't want to be one more cutthroat. I took one of those = business/transformational workshops called Money and You, primarily = because I wanted to keep my girlfriend at the time who was really into = it. Regardless of this foolishness, I learned about the concept of = integrity - I am still deeply attached to it - and it made the idea of = engaging in business conceptually possible for me. The problem was that = I was so focused on making sure the client won, and not playing win-lose = on them, that I ended up playing lose-win. The client was happy, but I = got the short end of the stick every time, and I was = poor. 

After plenty of work on this I = realized that integrity has to go both ways. One has to be in integrity = with one's self - as well as  any service that one = offers.

Both you and Gene have expressed ideas = about this that are quite "client-centric". Overly so, in my opinion. = There appears to be only discussion of helping the client lower their = costs, undercutting and no consideration of a balanced = approach.

I see the balanced approach beginning = with what a Helix developer has to offer. Are you an amateur helping out = a friend? Are you pretty good at this, or are you a seasoned = professional. If its the latter, which I presume we are talking about, = then you have to consider what a good annual salary would look like and = what does it take to accomplish that - possible even with a family, a = home and a working car. What would that take, given that most of us have = to not only market and sell, but do the work, pay bills, lick stamps and = take out the trash. One also has to figure maybe we should have a little = savings for taxes, property taxes, and maybe some for the kid's college = fund. There is also the place you live to take into consideration. And, = of course, at the end, there is what the market will bear, and whether = the endeavor is actually viable or not.

For = many years I have had no 401K or equivalent and paid the property taxes = on my house with money out of the second. What's wrong with = me?

I think the final equation looks more like = what level of service am I offering for what appropriate = compensation. At the moment my rates are $125 an hour. The only = reason they are so low is because my clients don't want to pay more. I = know others who charge $150.

We've done well = this year because both Dale and I have gotten better at charging for our = time - all of it. The client-centric position would have us deduct money = from the bill when we program a little slow - maybe its a difficult = problem, or just difficult for us to see on that day. The problem is = that when we are speeding through a feature at light speed, we don't get = to charge double, or triple. We charge one rate to everyone, and it all = comes out in the wash. 

I bill both on a = project basis and an hourly one, depending on the type of project. If it = is ongoing work, then its hourly. If its a project with a scheduled = installation, then its by project. If I am asked to make a guess, I will = protect myself thoroughly and make a guess on the very high side - and = let the client know that if he wants me to gamble he needs to gamble as = well. Forcing me to guess will cost him.

Once, = a client once haggled with me and I told him, "You don't want to try and = pay me less, you want to pay me more than I am asking you. You have a = complicated collection and want to have me in business doing Helix - to = protect yourself and your investment." I tell others that this is a = two-way street, I am only interested in playing win-win, that I will do = my best to do what is right for them and the reverse should also be = true.

It's one thing when you are doing someone = a favor. There are times when we do things for less for someone who = can't afford it. I can afford to do so only when I charge others a fair = rate. Most of my clients don't need a break, they need excellent work at = a fair price. I consider myself a pro, and if they want professional = work, they should be prepared to pay for professional rates. There's = always someone cheaper, some student or beginner, but its not = appropriate for a company that will rely on the work that is = done.

I hope this is = helpful.

Lenny




On Aug 25, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Gregg = Sanderson wrote:

Excellent advice from Gene.....

I = forgot to mention in my epistle, to break the job into small pieces. =  Gene calls them "chunks".  I like "Phases"... it sounds more = dramatic.

Beyond that, I agree with everything = he says here except quoting an hourly rate.  Once you quote an = hourly rate, the client's watching the meter, and you have to also. =  I prefer quoting for the phase and that's the price no matter what = it takes.

But if you must quote by the hour, = and the client isn't a Helix developer, always estimate time in what it = would take to do it in a lesser environment like Filemaker or 4D or = such.  You'll always undercut quotes from them and still make out = OK. :-)
--
Gregg

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
   =         Write a wise saying and your = name will live forever.
          =                     =         -- Anonymous
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=

On Aug 25, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Evgeny Goosev = wrote:

I'm I'll right now but if Wade can confess weakness = here, I've got this part down near perfectly, and that makes everyone = the happiest regardless of what happens.

ALWAYS KEEP $$ Medium = and do able (60/hr)  AWAYS COMMIT TO PERFECT RESULTS, But ONLY for = the next step. AGREE PERFECT PROGRESS, but only to THE NEXT SMALL DOABLE = CHUNK. Agree each chunk PERFECTION ATTAINMENT determines commitment = whether to continue to next chunk, or hire another.

Now you can = be PERFECT because you will Agree every clarification is on the clock ( =  and our list wisdom is your insurance.)

All payment is = advances or milestones. Then be absolutely honest about every detail as = you work, social, personal, philosophical, technical, etc. = COMMUNICATE!

lastly, never own the job. It's always the client's = attempt to win a gamble to get rich. Link every act to this. That = defines BUSINESS ; )

Got some bug, but still = Cheerfully,
Gene

Then

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug = 24, 2010, at 3:42 PM, Kegan Gg Daniel <danielkegan@gmail.com> = wrote:

A fair total cost can't be = estimated without some assessment of the current Helix = collection.
When the = collection was crafted (under which Helix = version);
Which Helix version = it now runs under;
Total size = of structure;
total size of = data;
number of = relations;
number of = views;
number of user = icons;
are some of the = objective that that might be informative.

Most important = is whether the current collection design is good, fair, = ora
rat's nest--but that's = often not a polite question to ask a prospective = client,
and even if you did, = the reliability of the answer is quite = uncertain.

Asking who (all = the whos) who build the collection might be an easier = question;
along with about how = many hours (or $) was spent in building the = collection.

Has it run = flawlessly since first installed;
how frequent have been bugs and = crashes;
when were there major = rewrites.

How mission = critical is the collection (which impacts how easily you can = muck
around): 24/7 oxygen, or = can the system be down for 1 or 12 or 48 = hours.

Likely, a fair = start is
an hourly charge with = a max for initial diagnosis and estimate.

Daniel Kegan * = daniel@keganlaw.com * Kegan = & Kegan, Ltd.
79 W Monroe = St #1320 Chicago IL 60603-4969 USA
Phn 312=3D782-6495 x21; Fax = 312=3D782-6494
We identify, = develop, and protect intangible business = assets
and counsel other = professionals on legal issues
Balanced Counsel for Smart Clients <http://www.KeganLaw.com>

On Aug 24, 2010, at 5:25 PM, Collins Owens = wrote:
I have been contacted by a Helix user and asked to come to = their site and "upgrade" their application, all their forms, to be = presentable on OS X machines.
They are asking the first = question always asked,...  "how much will it cost = me...."
So, Question:  What is a standard or typical rate to = charge for this type of work?  They are insisting at first that I = commute to their office - about 40 miles, but eventually they may let me = work via timbuctu.
Is it more typical to charge by = the hour?  How much is = normal?
or by the job? How much per = form?
Thanks,
Collins


=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-
You received this = message because you are subscribed to the mailing list <Helix-L@realpeople.com>. =  To unsubscribe, e-mail <Helix-L-off@realpeople.com&= gt;; to switch to DIGEST mode, e-mail <Helix-L-digest@realpeople.co= m>; contact a human being at <Helix-L-request@realpeople.= com>.  Google archive since 20 August 2006:  http://groups.google.com/g= roup/helix-l.  Basic archive since 1 Jan 2006:  http://ma= il.realpeople.com:8100/Lists/Helix-L/List.html

=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
You = received this message because you are subscribed to the mailing list = <Helix-L@realpeople.com>. =  To unsubscribe, e-mail <Helix-L-off@realpeople.com&= gt;; to switch to DIGEST mode, e-mail <Helix-L-digest@realpeople.co= m>; contact a human being at <Helix-L-request@realpeople.= com>.  Google archive since 20 August 2006:  http://groups.google.com/g= roup/helix-l.  Basic archive since 1 Jan 2006:  http://ma= il.realpeople.com:8100/Lists/Helix-L/List.html
<= /div>


<= /body>= --Boundary_(ID_5HL4Ir8ra+NIIywWa7Kx4g)--